Article from the Irish Examiner can be found here.
Bullet points-:While transfers are under consideration by bishops, the group appointed last year by Education Minister Ruairi Quinn has gone furthest in its recommendations in relation to schools in areas where new patronage options are unlikely for families.
There are about 1,700 such standalone schools outside urban areas, where the nearest school is about 3km away. In order to make these schools more inclusive to a diversifying population, the group recommends:
* Changes to education law to place responsibility on school boards to uphold the rights of children and parents with regard to denominational religious education and faith formation;
* Consideration to amend equality law that allows a school give preference to children of a particular faith, or refuse enrolment to those who do not belong to the school’s denomination;
* Removal of a rule that refers to religion as the most important subject in the primary school curriculum;
* Schools helping to accommodate children opting out of denominational religious teaching or faith formation;
* Ongoing discussions with parents and clergy about the parish role in sacramental preparation.
“The advisory group recommends that sacramental preparation, or education for religious rites or other belief systems, should not encroach on the time allocated for the general curriculum,” its report says.
Before anyone starts giving out to me, yes Irish is our national language and it would be nice if we could all speak it, but the majority of us can’t and following the current teaching model, most kids won’t. It’s dull, difficult, rarely used IN Ireland and not used at all outside of the country. It is a cultural sinkhole. We throw money at it, and it swallows it whole.
Religion, well I’ve no time for religion one way or another, but if there must be class designated to it, why not a single weekly class, discussing world religions. That might be useful. I’d underpin that with a discussion on ethics and civics and how to be a good person without believing in a deity at all. I’d allow for critical thinking. I would certainly, CERTAINLY!, stop telling lies to children about farking arks, talking snakes and a 7 day world build. Creationism rots even adult minds, you’d hardly want to inflict that on the mind of a child. Even listening to the kids on Newstalk this morning, waffling on about a risen Jesus, made my eyes roll clear to the back of my head. They’re parroting back a story they been drip fed for most of their lives; it’s a truly sad state of affairs.
If parents want their children to be involved in a particular religion let them do so on their own time; Indeed! That would be a true show of faith would it not? They could make it an inclusive activity, send children to a Sunday school, bring them to mass, discus the bible with them, whatever they deem important. Wouldn’t that makes more sense? Wouldn’t that show an interest? Instead of the usual lazy platitudes, why not actively involve themselves in their religion. Wouldn’t that be the most sensible thing?
Anyhoo, t’will be interesting to see how this pans out over the next while. A la carte catholics, of which there are legion in this country, will be sniping and snapping on various forums, David Quinn will be banging his victim drum and property prices will drop another few thousand as we circle the drain. Bon bloody chance mon amis, bon bloody chance.
Tags: belief systems, primary school curriculum, religion, ruairi
April 10, 2012 at 9:07 am |
I was pretty happy to see this today.
At bloody last,at least there’ll be a couple of decent changes due to the new government, while it sticks to the same ol’, same ol’ in so many other ways.
I like your phrase “A la carte catholics”.
Pretty sure 99% of catholics don’t even know the core differences between one christian religion and another.
April 10, 2012 at 9:12 am |
I guarantee you if you asked the majority of catholics in this country if they believed in transubstantiation you’d be met with ‘huh?’
April 10, 2012 at 9:44 am |
In essence I am for this but I have a few conflicting issues, 1) The first a fiscal one, practically how will it work? Much of the land our schools are on is owned by the RC. So are we suppose to buy it back? And currently many schools are part funded by the RC so what will happen? 2) RC are without question the best schools in the world. Whether it be years of practice or religious influence, for some reason religious schools, IN GENERAL are head and shoulders above non denomination schools, do we really want to lose this? Can we not just use them the way they have been using us for years. I mean look what happened when they took nuns out of the hospitals. I am all for non denominations schools, I hate those idiots that send their children to RC schools only to stigmatize them by saying they can’t participate in religion. And if you point out that there are nondenominational schools in their area the idiot parent will waffle on about the RC having better facilities and standards etc. If there are more non religious schools people will have more choice. And choice is always good. Me personally, I will send mine to RC schools. I am big into education and I want the best. I’ll do the communion and conformation thing. For no other reason other than its their club and their rules. You can’t have your cake and eat it.
April 10, 2012 at 9:58 am |
It’s not like there won’t be Catholic Schools, there have always been faith schools, but this will go some way to addressing the monopoly hold the CC has on primary education.
April 10, 2012 at 10:02 am |
And, I speak fluent Irish. I learnt in school. The only difference between me and people that can’t speak is my mam made a huge effort to speak it at home. It is the same with every subject in school if parents make an effort at home children will do better. It would answer some people better to re evaluate their parenting skills instead of blaming schools for everything.
April 10, 2012 at 10:06 am |
Indeed, but if the ‘only’ difference between the fluent speaker and the non-fluent speaker is parental participation, then Irish has failed spectacularly as a subject and ought to be taught using a different model, or dropped.
April 10, 2012 at 11:05 am |
You could say that about any subject, math for example. I was good at it my baby bro not so much, he got grinds and dad sat with him and he did really well. Obviously there will be shit teachers but I just don’t think we should dismiss Irish because some people have a personal grievance with it.
April 10, 2012 at 11:08 am
You need maths throughout life, you can’t say the same for Irish. It’s more an indulgence at the moment.
April 10, 2012 at 11:20 am
What about, History or physics or economics or French or Geography. I have never used any of them. I never had to explain an atom or why a river meanders but it is about challenging yourself and opening your mind. They also got be to university. Irish has a role to play.
April 10, 2012 at 11:25 am
Whataboutery is tedious and I don’t have the time to indulge it. If you think teaching Irish is of value so be it. I think it’s poorly taught and rather pointless in its current model. *shrugs*
April 10, 2012 at 3:26 pm
That is not nice.
April 10, 2012 at 10:16 am |
The church is massively in debt to the government due to all of the payouts from the child-raping the church got up to.
That’s that stumbling block removed.
Also i was under the impression that most schools were owned by the government but just have the priest making final calls on which teachers get hired. It’s not as if the priests do any teaching.
I used to go to a CBS and was never taught by an actual christian brother except for one year, wheras ten years before that, there were plenty of christian brothers teaching.
Slightly off topic, but the one that taught me was a lovely intelligent man from dublin (and FMC, yes he was ginger).
But the ones before him were nasty bastards who used to beat the shit out of kids, especially the poorer kids.
April 10, 2012 at 12:50 pm |
They are cash poor and asset rich. Will any trade of land & buildings against cash restitution to abuse victims leave the taxpayer picking up the rest of the tab?
April 10, 2012 at 11:38 pm
the government has already paid the abuse victims and is waiting on the RC to pay back the cash. Taxpayer has already picked up the tab.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/news_from_ireland/Irish-Catholic-Church-unable-to-foot-19-billion-abuse-bill-146552675.html
April 11, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Ah. I should have known.
April 10, 2012 at 10:33 am |
No Morgor, much of the land is owned by the RC. Funding for salaries etc is from the board of education ie. The government. The RC is probably the most cash rich company in the world. The illusion that they are indebted to the government is just that, an illusion they would like you to believe. I an not for religion now, I am just wondering how it would work on a practical level and would our standard of education slip.
April 10, 2012 at 11:41 pm |
I was already aware that teachers are paid by the board of education. What do you mean there is an “illusion” that they are indebted to the government? They owe the government for the money that has already been paid by the taxpayer, they paid off some of it in land, but still owe much more.
April 10, 2012 at 1:11 pm |
A single weekly class? Ok teach them critical thinking, but that needs to backed with some sort of teaching on morality. I guess its tricky to choose who’s version of wrong and right to teach and it certainly needs to be broader than Catholicism but we need to get a sense of morality into kids who don’t have parents who will do this.
April 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
At this stage I wish to hell there were classes that taught kids to not to litter and to have some bloody manners. I beginning to look back fondly on my elocution class too, although at the time I hated it with a passion. That wretched poem Tarantella by crashing bore Hilaire Belloc is scorched into my brain forever.
April 11, 2012 at 2:00 pm
Some of our hard earned tax monies go to pay an environmental awareness officer who runs the green schools programme with the teachers. They do get litter awareness education. As for elocution, no bleedin whay !
April 11, 2012 at 8:20 am |
Good post FMC.
A subject close to my heart as I’ll be having to deal with this holy minefield in a cupla(that’s all my Irish right there.What lazy parents I have) years.
Nonny ; These “idiots” who want to send their children to the best school whilst not compromising their own beliefs,why should they not be allowed the best the state can offer.It’s their fucking money that’s paying for it.
You say yourself that you want your children to have the best.The only difference that I can see between you and these “idiots”,is that you’re willing to indoctrinate your children in a religion you don’t appear to believe in,for the sake of a good education.
Did you ever think that when your children get to an age where they can pick and choose for themselves that they might not like have being signed up for life(you’re not allowed to “leave” anymore) to a ridiculous little sky god religion that was invented by some holy joes only 2000 years ago?
April 11, 2012 at 8:41 am |
Considering the absolute monopoly the CC has had on primary schools, the notion that parents had any choice in where they could send their children is nonsense.
April 11, 2012 at 8:54 am |
There are plenty of nondenominational schools send them there and don’t stigmatize the poor child. And my point if you had read it was that the schools are not wholly funded by the state. Furthermore, the idiots i refer to are those who have the option of sending their children to a nondenominational school but opt for the RC school because it has a better education yet then decide to not let their children partake in religion. It is their club if you want to avail of the good education and you have the option of a nondenominational school, i don’t think you should be allowed opt out of religion. As for my kids options, I would hate for them to be stigmatized and feel left out of communion etc. So I would let them partake. Whether they believe in god or not is of little or no interest to me. Doing well in their leaving cert and going to college would be my priority.
April 11, 2012 at 9:00 am |
Stigmatized, heh. Oh no, how would they ever recover their sense of self worth. How would they go through life with the burden of knowing their parents didn’t dress them in white/suit and send them into the Maw the Catholic Church.
Poppycock logic is ever I saw it.
By the way, there are not ‘plenty’ of nonreligious primary schools dotted willy and nilly about the countryside, indeed that’s what this reform seeks to address.
April 11, 2012 at 9:18 am |
There may be plenty of non-demoninational schools in the cities for parents to choose from, but that’s not the case in the country-side.
In my neck of the woods, a small village, there is only one school, and the CC decides on the appointment of teachers, as well as dropping in from time to time to “inspect” the teaching of religion – basically CC indoctrination. There is absolutely no provision made for non catholics. There is a larger town about 10km from this village, where you have more CC run schools and one Protestant school, but still no Gaelscoil or non-demoninational.
So, what is a parent to do? Not put their kids in school and teach them from home? Hardly likely when families need every cent they can earn becuase of the state of the country.
The teaching of a specific religion has absolutely no place in state funded schools, and these should be the default option for parents with children. If you want to send them to a Catholic school, Muslim school, or whatever, then you are free to search one out and send them there, but just becuase of the way things were set up in the past where the church owned the land the school was built on should not longer entitle the church to dictate what is taught there.
April 11, 2012 at 9:50 am
Exactly, parents have the option to send them to a faith school- like I attended (although not by choice) or a state school, which should have no ‘true religion’ embedded into school policy.
April 11, 2012 at 9:01 am |
No MS cat it is not nonsence there are plenty. Plenty that have not reached there capacity either. Climb down of the Lytle high horse girls, all I was pondering was how it would work, would we buy the land back or like the nuns leaving hospital, would the demise of religious schools mean a drop in education standards. Two perfectly logical issues.
April 11, 2012 at 9:03 am |
That wasn’t the argument I laughed at, I laughed at the idea that children might be ‘stigmatized’ by not being included in a nonsensical religious ceremony which they are too young to understand.
April 11, 2012 at 9:10 am |
Ok, so seven year old little girls and boys see all their friends getting dressed up, getting photos taken, making money, buying toys, going for dinner or having parties and they won’t feel left out? Seriously, your trying to say they won’t?? I don’t agree with the money/parties etc. But it happen and it not right to make a child feel so left out.
April 11, 2012 at 9:14 am |
Oh right, I forgot non-religious parents are total idiots and might not bring their children to something else on the day of the communion as a treat or make their children feel equally special in some other way without signing them up to a religion.
April 11, 2012 at 9:41 am |
No, they don’t. The kids sit and watch or sit in the library.
April 11, 2012 at 9:44 am |
On the day of the communion? No, they don’t, there’s no class that day, they’re off.
April 11, 2012 at 1:31 pm
You’re right FMC. On the day of the Communion, those not making it do not have to go to school, they’re off. My husband is a primary school teacher and in his school there’s a party for the kids after the ceremony in the school hall. Those making their Communion and those children who aren’t are ALL invited to this. In fact, in his school those children not making their Communion are invited to the ceremony if they want to go and their parents are OK with it. To see their friends, see the style, get their photo taken. And then back to the school for some goodies and a bit of a play. Of course not all of the children attend, some parents prefer not to bring them to the church and have their own special day with them at jp,e. But some do and the parents seem to appreciate it and the kids love seeing their friends dressed up and going to the party and being included in the class photo.
(Of course it’s not ideal I know that, but at least they’re trying to be as inclusive as they can, you know?)
April 11, 2012 at 4:08 pm
Aye I know a number of parents with children of communion age, some that make it, some that don’t; it’s nothing like being left out in the cold or ‘stigmatized’, one little Chinese girl in particular had a ball on communion day at a party of one of the ‘brides or Christ’ without the iffy dress code.
April 11, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
Typo – that should read ‘some parents prefer not to bring them to the church and have their own special day with them at HOME’ not at ‘jp’e’.
What’s jp’e? I’m getting worse!!!!
April 11, 2012 at 1:42 pm |
It’s “their club”??And “Their rules”??
The last time I checked their club rules involved gays being treated as second class citizens.And women being refused serious
involvement in what is supposed to be an all inclusive ethos.
Not to mention the rape of children and their subsequent denial and cover-up.
Your club sounds like shit.I don’t want my children to be a part of it.But I live in the country and have no choice if I want them to get a good education.And thats what needs to change.
And by-the-by,would you have your children join Scientology if it meant they got a good leaving?
Where would you draw the line?
April 11, 2012 at 1:59 pm |
Listen I don’t mean to be rude but I think you should read my comment again. I’m am not for religion in schools but given that religious schools are the best in the world I was more wondering if kicking religion out would cause a slip in educational standards.I was also wondering if we would have to buy the land back of the RC. I said I would send my kids to RC schools because I want them to get the best education. And I would also let them partake in religion because I don’t want them to feel left out. That is called empathy. Furthermore, given that one can drive from the tip to the tail of Ireland in 5.5hours claiming that your stranded in the country is bullshit. You couldn’t be more than an hour away from a non religious school. It just means making an effort.
April 11, 2012 at 4:23 pm
“And I would also let them partake in religion because I don’t want them to feel left out. That is called empathy”
It’s not called empathy at all, it called compliance. Very big difference.
Also how do you think subjecting small children to 2 or more hour’s car journey a day just to receive a decent non CC agenda driven education (what time would they need to get up?) remotely fair on anyone. No, you’re just being a contrarian at this stage.
April 11, 2012 at 7:37 pm
You can look at educationstogether.ie, People would not have to travel 2 or more hours a day.
April 11, 2012 at 8:07 pm
And as always, spectacularly missing the point…
April 11, 2012 at 8:45 pm
I was just saying there are options available. Why do you have to be so mean. I think it is my diction, I really do. Or my ability to interpret thing. I seem incapable of getting my point accross without being offensive.
April 11, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
I’m sure every school is different but even with the best intentions, as you pointed out it is not ideal. The kids know they are not part of it. So if parents feel that strongly send them to a nondenominational school. Trying to suggest that 7 & 8 year old kids wouldn’t feel left out is positively idiotic.
April 11, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
It depends on the situation though Nonny. Not all children who are non-Catholic have no religion. Many are Muslim, some Jewish, many are Christian and attend evengelical churches. Generally most religions have feast days and celebrations, rites of passage for children. So say a Mormon child attending a Catholic school – the kids in her class make their Communion at 8 and she won’t. But in her church, kids are Baptised at 8. They wear a white dress, have their photo taken and a fuss made of them and receive presents and cards and good wishes. So I’d imagine the Mormon mam and dad will explain that to their eight-year-old. This celebration isn’t for you, but in July/whenever, it’s your Baptism and you’ll have your day then. Similarly with Muslim kids who celebrate Ramadan – that’s an enormous celebration for them, with parties, feasts and even presents. They don’t make Communion, but still have their special day.
I think it’s disengenous to say a blanket ‘kids will feel left out’ as many won’t, many will have had their own religion and their own feast days and celebrations explained to them by their parents. I recently had the honour to attend a Mormon baptism and the child was just as excited as any kid I’ve seen on their Communion. She had been talking about it in school, preparing her hair and outfit for days, inviting family and friends and was over the moon with herself. She didn’t feel left out at Communion time as she knew her special day was coming.
People seem to think that there’s Catholic kids and then any kids who aren’t Catholic have no religion at all. Not the case.
April 11, 2012 at 10:03 pm |
kids might be left out? oh NO!
so what? nothing’ll happen. they won’t burst into flames. i never made my bar mitzvah. why? not jewish! i hate this thing of people feeling the need to placate kids in case their precious little snowflake feels left out, instead of instilling in them values that will make them better people and encouraging them not to be so materialistic
April 11, 2012 at 10:20 pm
And you still – presumably – have your penis intact! Oh how you missed out a religious experience.
I know, it was a wonderful example of argumentum ad misericordiam. As though children don’t have to contend with a thousand disappointments before adulthood.
April 11, 2012 at 5:51 pm |
What is it about an RC school makes them so good do you think?
The ones in my village have no nuns or brothers teaching in them anymore.They all died out.
So apart from the hour of religion a day, that could be better spent shoring up our woeful reading and writing levels,and saying prayers throughout the day,what could we possibly have to lose by making them inclusive to all.
These schools are good because they have a history with the area.A reputation built up through the years of RC dominace,that they would have had anyway.Take out the RC and you think,what?,the teachers will start slacking and without their morning prayers,these same kids who achieve good grades will say “Nah,fuck this for a game of fairies.”
The school year is short enough without eating into it with a religion most people only have because it is thrust upon them.Think what an extra 5-6 hours a week studying a proper subject would do.
I guarantee if you took religion out of the schools,within 20 years,that 84% RC on the census would look as dated as Ryan Tubridy.
“But I don’t even believe in Jebus!!………..Help me Jebus!!”
April 11, 2012 at 7:34 pm |
“What is it about an RC school makes them so good do you think?”
I don’t know, that is what I was asking. You make a good point, maybe nothing would change and that would be great. But say like the US and Australia. They have a culture of secular schooling, yet people pay top dollar to send their kids to religious schools. And league tables would suggest these schools fair better accedemically. So I was thinking, would that mean that our schools would go the other way and standards slip. I was looking there at other places but there doesn’t seem to be anywhere else that booted religon out having had such a history of religious involvement in education. Like what I was saying about the hospitals, on the one had it was a terrible lose geting rid of the nuns, they maintained superior levels of cleanliness and great order in hospitals but yet on the other hand by getting rid of them we don’t have them adversly influencing the medical profession with silly notions of the likes of contraception. The fact the priests still remain on the boards of many of our hospitals amazes me. Basically what I mean is how do you get rid of the bad part and keep the good bits.
April 12, 2012 at 8:46 am |
I embrace multicultuarilismisation and all religions should be respected equally except for muslins who think women are second class citizens and jews who are greedy and think they’re better than palenstinians but the panelstilinias are arab muslins so they can kill each other but the main point is schools and what to do with your nipper-oonys when they make their communion. I would have no problem sending my kids to a roman catholic school but also I’d send them to a hedge school if I thought they’d get the best education there. but how any parent can deny their childerinos the opportunity to have a special communion day is basically child abuse the same as fingering your own daughter because all the other kids are not being fingered and they go out and get all the money and then go for ice-cream at the Stillorgan park hotel where I got a knickerbocker glory hole when I was in my dress and then you can buy comics or the kids these days will probably buy celebrity magazines with the kardushiyans in it and then send away vouchers for a free stripper pole which they can use at home and the way we let kids wear playboy t-shirts as if it was ok for a 9 year old makes me sick to my belly but if you tell me that the priests don’t best know how to teach children then you are so wrong and I’ll scrape your face off because my mofobroholittlemohobrobrobrobroohnobro went to a christian brothers school and he learned discipline there and even if he spends his free time rocking back and forth in a corner weeping it means that when he’s out and about at work and all that he’s got respect for his elders and as a 12th dan black belt gaelgoir I can tell you I’d rather have a priest or a nun teaching my kids than a filthy arab or alan shatter I can tell you that. And rurai quinn is a bad man who is trying to perpetrate the agenda of the atheist and the buddhist at the expense of our christianity which, like it or not, defines this country from top to bottom and has done for years. Of course I don’t believe in god at all.
April 12, 2012 at 9:22 am |
I am perplexed, I used to think this was gimpy now I leaning towards Andy Pandy. Why do you bother taking the time, that must have took 40 mins.
April 12, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
And once again the West Virgina Association of Coffee Sprayed Laptop Repairers thank you for your continued patronage.